109: Escaping Utah - Part 1 with Cheryl and Dan Clute

Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 Patreon.com/132problems The second (and best) half of our first panel discussion on Brian Hales' false claims and opaque "transparency." We discuss Brian's oft repeated claim that no leader (or "keyholder" LOL) ever said why God "commanded" polygamy. There is an embarrassment of riches when choosing quotes to expose just how seriously false this claim is. It was amazing to see what we each came up with. Good stuff in this one! I'm hoping Brian and others will take notice that lies will not stand. We take these and all other scriptures seriously: "Therefore, that we should waste and wear out our lives in bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness, wherein we know them; and they are truly manifest from heaven— These should then be attended to with great earnestness. Let no man count them as small things; for there is much which lieth in futurity, pertaining to the saints, which depends upon these things." (D&C 123:13-15) https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/123?lang=eng Links: Orson Pratt, The Seer: https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/2719f45e-8475-4fc4-823a-ab193aefa084/0/136 Brigham Young, July 14, 1855: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, pp. 264-268 https://jod.mrm.org/3/264 Erastus Snow October 4, 1857: Journal of Discourses, Volume 5, pp. 285-292 https://jod.mrm.org/5/285 Heber C. Kimball Feb 1 1857 : Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, pp. 207-213 https://jod.mrm.org/4/207 Brigham Young, July 6, 1862: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 9, pg. 322 https://jod.mrm.org/9/318 Brigham Young, August 9 1868: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 12, pg. 261 https://jod.mrm.org/12/255 John Taylor 1883: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 24, pg. 229 https://jod.mrm.org/24/227 John Taylor Revelation Sept 27, 1886: Brian Hales paper, https://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/1886-Revelation-article.pdf Joseph F. Smith, July 7, 1878: Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, pg. 28 https://jod.mrm.org/20/24 George Q. Cannon November 16, 1884: Journal of Discourses, vol. 25, pp. 360-371 https://jod.mrm.org/25/360 Brigham Young, August 19, 1866: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 11 pg. 268 https://jod.mrm.org/11/266 December 19, 1891 Petition for amnesty https://digitalcommons.law.ou.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=7160&context=indianserialset Chapters: 0:00 Intro 2:30 Polygamy damages marriages 10:05 Brian Hales: We don’t know why God commanded polygamy 20:15 Orson Pratt's reasons for polygamy 25:10 Prostitution or polygamy? 42:45 Brigham Young’s reasons for polygamy 50:00 Polygamy required for exaltation? 59:50 Erastus Snow: a woman’s lord is her husband? 1:02:20 Heber C. Kimball: thousands of wives! 1:03:50 Brigham Young: monogamy is no part of heaven 1:09:30 Brigham Young: polygamy for moral salvation of world 1:11:15 Joseph F. Smith: polygamy essential for highest blessings 1:16:00 George Q. Cannon: few righteous men, so we need polygamy? 1:18:00 Bloodlines 1:19:29 Q12, John Taylor: polygamy necessary to salvation 1:32:51 Brian Hales' narrative destroys faith 1:34:25 Final thoughts

9 Juni 20241h 39min

Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 Patreon.com/132problems

2 Juni 20241h 35min

Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 Patreon.com/132problems Links: Watch Part 1 here: Ep 119: Are Nauvoo Land Deeds Evidence of Joseph's Polygamy? Response to Bill Reel Pt. 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4ufVojb0xw Ep. 102: Deep in the Weeds of the Deeds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXmALUrDTnc Ep. 104: Dirty Deeds -- Deeds Pt. 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn-qjI6rUh4

26 Maj 20241h 17min

Bill Reel claims that he has proven mathematically that deeds from Joseph Smith to women are undeniable evidence of his polygamy. He also believes that deeds reveal two previously unknown wives, Jane Gully and Mary Ann Bosley. While these are interesting ideas, they are very easily debunkable. Join me for this investigation (which includes clips of my discussion with Statistics Professor, Dr. John Kidd) so you will understand exactly why this argument should be discarded by anyone who wants to maintain credibility in these conversations. Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 Patreon.com/132problems Links: Ep. 102: Deep in the Weeds of the Deeds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXmALUrDTnc Ep. 104: Dirty Deeds -- Deeds Pt. 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn-qjI6rUh4 85: Proving William Clayton's Journals are NOT Contemporaneous w/ Jeremy Hoop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a91kvdLKSU Chapters: 0:00 Intro 2:40 Bill Reel: Deeds are the smoking gun for Joseph's polygamy 7:00 Has anyone claimed that deeds are evidence of polygamy? 16:00 James Whitehead testimony v. William Clayton 27:45 Bill's flawed statistical hypothesis 50:15 Was it rare for women to own property? 1:04:30 Deeds to women from Brigham & Heber & Wm Clayton 1:10:40 Join us next time for Part Two

19 Maj 20241h 11min

Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 Patreon.com/132problems

12 Maj 20242h 36min

Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 Patreon.com/132problems Recommended videos: Episode 1: Introduction - A Surprising Beginning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKkK-1mgEkY Ep. 107: God Is Not a Polygamist! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WXFFYd6mXA Ep. 42: Emma and Joseph https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3KtLnYFu9c Ep. 113: Exonerating Emma - Repenting of Our False Traditions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFTLN8Er1_A Ep. 83: Why It Matters - LDS Polygamy Trauma w/ Heather and Lisa https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BonCxTzzdfY (Excerpt - Lisa's Story: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjyYTw8RFqk) LINKS for this episode: Joseph Smith brings charges against Harrison Sagers: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/charges-against-harrison-sagers-preferred-to-william-marks-21-november-1843/1 Sarah Miller realizes Joseph never condoned Chauncey Higbee's polygamy: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/testimony-against-chauncey-l-higbee-25-may-1844/3 Wilford Woodruff - Joseph condemns adultery, polygamy, etc. "in toto": https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/remarks-25-november-1843-as-reported-by-wilford-woodruff/1 Draft version of Woodruff account above with revisions: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-draft-1-march-31-december-1843/155#X97D4A60E-8864-4C8A-BD10-6370A770B4AB Final version of Woodruff account above: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-e-1-1-july-1843-30-april-1844/152 Chargers against Sagers by his wife Lucinda: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/charges-against-harrison-sagers-preferred-to-the-first-presidency-and-quorum-of-the-twelve-apostles-circa-10-april-1844/1#source-note Gary Bergera's unsupported assertions (see p. 88): https://www.jstor.org/stable/43200169?read-now=1&seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents Brian Hales lists Sagers as someone taught polygamy by Joseph Smith: https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/history/polygamy-causes-martyrdom/ Chapters: 0:00 Introduction 3:45 Sagers charged w/ using Joseph's name to justify adultery 7:00 Sagers tried to seduce his wife's younger sister 12:15 Sarah Miller affidavit - Chauncey used Joseph's name 25:35 Some thoughts on church courts 32:10 Grover and Johnson - polygamous high priests 36:20 Aaron Johnson's many wives 38:30 Thomas Grover's fraudulent affidavit 48:20 Joseph condemns adultery and any such thing 1:06:40 Lucinda Sagers charges her husband with polygamy 1:20:55 Harrison Sagers's many wives 1:29:00 Did Joseph authorize Sagers's polygamy? 1:37:00 Unsupported assertions from historians 1:48:35 Another historian's unsupported claims 1:54:15 The sandy foundation of "settled" history

5 Maj 20242h 1min

Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 Patreon.com/132problems Chapters: 0:00 Intro 3:00 Think Again, Faith Again 11:55 Lingering effects of polygamy 24:25 The problem of pain 30:25 Michelle's on pain and God's plan 37:15 Thoughts on innocent suffering 40:45 A less-than-ideal wedding day 47:00 Thoughts on our eternal family 55:45 Loving God by loving others 1:06:30 The fallibility of man 1:14:50 Church history & the modern church 1:59:50 Respecting children's choices 2:33:35 Placing God above all others 2:50:25 Appreciating those around us 3:05:35 "Santiago," by poet David Whyte

28 Apr 20243h 12min

This is Part Two of my recent conversation with Cheryl and Dan Clute, members of the Restoration Branches who have so much information to share with us. If you haven't yet watched Part One of this interview, please watch it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e7kXtTUCJ0 Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 Patreon.com/132problems 132problems.org Links: Herald (includes autobiography of Charles Derry): https://www.latterdaytruth.org/pdf/100138.pdf Bound Autobiography of Elder Charles Derry: https://restorationbookstore.org/products/90101001?_pos=1&_sid=d6635be99&_ss=r Restoration Bookstore Saints Advocate: https://restorationbookstore.org/search?type=product&q=saints+advocate #lds #mormon #mormons #mormonhistory #polygamy #exmo #exmormon #josephsmith #brighamyoung #josephsmithpapers #alteredhistory #revisedhistory #fakehistory #churchofjesuschrist #churchofjesuschristoflatterdaysaints

14 Apr 20241h 18min