162: Maxine Hanks on Emma and the Organization of the Relief Society

The collection often referred to as "the Whitney documents," which includes contemporary sources written in Joseph's own hand, is generally considered to be the strongest evidence of Joseph's polygamy. Recently multiple historians I have engaged with have gone directly to the Whitney documents to explain to me why the history of Joseph's polygamy is settled. I strongly disagree with them. But, I realized I needed to directly address the Whitney documents to explain why I and many others (hopefully including those who watch this episode) do not see the Whitney collection as evidence of Joseph's polygamy -- but instead as evidence of something very different. Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 Patreon.com/132problems Links: Short: Joseph's October 5, 1843, Journal Entry https://www.youtube.com/shorts/dSBPzR-UUsQ Sarah Ann Whitney Affidavit: https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/ffbd6561-0e91-4a83-b15c-a0b631ed157e/0/0?lang=eng Elizabeth Ann Whitney Affidavit published in Women’s Exponent, A Leaf From an Autobiography: https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/WomansExp/id/6381/rec/150 https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/63cd55be-ca21-456f-ac38-eee28d2a8b98/0/0 Joseph C. Kingsbury Reminiscent Autobiography: https://archive.org/details/journal-of-joseph-c-kingsbury/page/n15/mode/2up Orson F. Whitney biography of Newel K. Whitney: https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/98b21302-fbb8-437e-887b-9dd52340be1b/0/0 Whitney Revelation: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/revelation-27-july-1842/1#source-note Joseph Smith Letter to Newel and Elizabeth Whitney: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-to-newel-k-elizabeth-ann-smith-and-sarah-ann-whitney-18-august-1842/1 Sarah Ann Whitney Blessing: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-to-newel-k-elizabeth-ann-smith-and-sarah-ann-whitney-18-august-1842/1 Sarah Ann Whitney, Joseph C. Kingsbury Marriage Receipt: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/marriage-certificate-for-joseph-kingsbury-and-sarah-ann-whitney-29-april-1843/1 Nauvoo Marriage Registry, Sarah Ann Whitney/Joseph C. Kingsbury Entry: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/nauvoo-marriage-record-february-1842-january-1846/20 Nauvoo Marriage Ordinance: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/nauvoo-marriage-record-february-1842-january-1846/10 Nauvoo City Council Minutes 2/17/42: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/ordinance-17-february-1842/1 Newel K. Whitney Account Book (pg 100): https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/SCMisc/id/67281 https://user.xmission.com/~research/family/strange.htm#23 October 1, 1842 Times and Seasons Affidavits: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/times-and-seasons-1-october-1842/13 https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/times-and-seasons-1-october-1842/14 Emmaline B. Wells Journals: https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/p15999coll20/id/22879/rec/2 https://www.churchhistorianspress.org/emmeline-b-wells/1870s/1875/1875-05?lang=eng Edward Tullidge, Women of Mormondom: https://archive.org/details/womenofmormondom00tullrich/page/368/mode/2up Elizabeth Ann Whitney deed: https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/SCMisc/id/62022 Todd Compton Interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMvvmjvQA9w

28 Juli 20241h 23min

Links: Mark's channel and newest video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyIzg3Z759s Hemlock Knots website: https://hemlockknots.com/ Facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/979188099585330 Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 Patreon.com/132problems Links: Hemlock Knots https://hemlockknots.com/ Mormon polygamy - timeline of events https://hemlockknots.com/monogamy-polygamy-timeline/ Fanny Alger timeline: https://hemlockknots.com/fanny-algers-timeline-of-events/ First published record of "Fanny Alger" by her full name was in 1881, per Brian Hales: https://josephsmithspolygamy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Fanny-Alger-Appendix-D.pdf Chapter Index: 0:00 Intro 2:25 Introduction to Hemlock Knots 8:50 Mark's study of polygamy 16:35 Examining sources & discerning truth 22:05 Trusting in the arm of flesh 28:15 Reasons for the 1890 Manifesto 30:00 Different perspectives, same goal 32:25 Sources & logic v. appeals to authority 45:45 Hemlock Knots sources on Fanny Alger 47:25 Perspectives on Brian Hales 48:50 Hemlock Knots polygamy timeline 49:55 Scriptural polygamists v. monogamists 50:50 Resources on origins of tithing 55:50 The Temple Lot court case 1:00:35 First published record of "Fanny Alger" in 1881 (see link) 1:03:10 Brigham, trustee of the new church 1:05:05 Can a 'polygamy denier' stay in the church? 1:08:30 Polygamy research is a collaborative effort 1:12:15 What's really leading people out of the church? 1:27:50 Importance of respectful discussion

21 Juli 20241h 31min

Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 Patreon.com/132problems Chapter Index: 0:00 Intro 1:10 Is Brian Hales a "Transparencyist"? 3:20 Hyrum Smith's April 8 1844 speech 7:50 Brian on how Joseph could deny having seven wives 37:45 Speaking evil of the Lord's anointed (Joseph Smith) 39:15 Who's really destroying faith? 40:05 Brian on Emma Smith's denials 52:15 The testimony of traitors 56:35 Brian on William McLellin's claims about Emma 1:03:30 William McLellin robbed the Smiths 1:05:00 Fanny Alger 1:11:05 Emily Partridge & Eliza Snow unreliable witnesses 1:14:10 Joseph Smith III defends his mother 1:22:45 Edmund C. Briggs interview with Emma 1:28:50 RLDS narrative v. LDS narrative 1:37:10 Joseph III's letter to Joseph F. Smith re polygamy 1:50:25 Did Emma push Eliza R. Snow down the stairs? 1:56:15 Outro

14 Juli 20241h 59min

Whitney, Jeremy, and Michelle's next panel discussion, on Joseph's "carefully worded denials." What exactly did Joseph Smith say about polygamy and the accusations against him? Does calling them "carefully worded denials" or "dodging" sufficiently explain Joseph's continual and consistent statements opposing polygamy? Does the explanation of the apologists stand up to scrutiny? Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 Patreon.com/132problems Larry King interview with President Gordon B. Hinckley: https://youtu.be/jAsNMWwRXvs?si=BFxAv-Yau364_KgY&t=877 Gospel Teachings about Lying, by Dallin H. Oaks https://archive.org/details/oaksgospelteachingsaboutlyingclarkmemorandumspring1994/page/n1/mode/2up Ep. 117: William Henry Harrison Sagers: More Historical Malpractice https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwLQoBUKWao Chapter Index 0:00 Intro 1:30 Recap: No reasons given for polygamy? 9:40 Can prophets repent? 13:25 Modern Korihors? 19:15 Prophets should have answers - Amos 3:7 20:40 Pres. Hinckley condemns polygamy as a practice (link in description) 22:30 Church losing members because of polygamy teachings 25:00 Joseph & his "wives" had sexless marriages?? 28:55 Brian Hales' statements about Joseph's denials 29:25 "Lying for the Lord" 34:05 Dallin H. Oaks - gospel teachings on lying (link in description) 43:55 Denying Joseph's denials 47:55 "Spiritual wifery" 54:25 "Celestial plural marriage" & the doctrine of many wives & concubines 1:15:25 Joseph brings charges against Harrison Sagers (ep. link in description) 1:28:00 Joseph's fight against polygamy 1:37:40 The Voice of Innocence 1:42:05 Outro

7 Juli 20241h 43min

Two PhD Historians specializing in Mormon history spoke out this week about "polygamy deniers." Did it it help or hurt their credibility? Is there hope for better engagement? Link to Matt Bowman's Tribune article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8dDuXeyUw8&t=5s (Without the paywall): https://www.removepaywall.com/https:/www.sltrib.com/religion/2024/06/23/matthew-bowman-why-more-more?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTAAAR2dTxjIlDpdeS2212gIHDlxCUhz0zNip8g_fUvPE2kOikkPE_eQvUIqjOE_aem_mTyRBm5OMK42oXctoovbOQ Link to Michelle's reply (declined by the Tribune): https://132problems.org/the-real-reasons-more-and-more-mormon-types-are-denying-joseph-smith-practiced-polygamy/ Link to Ben Park's tiktok response: https://www.tiktok.com/@benjaminepark/video/7384855617909034286

2 Juli 20241h 10min

A lot has happened since our last call-in show! Let's meet and discuss all that has been going on. From constant attacks by crazy (alleged former) cult leaders, to interviews with actual polygamists and our accelerating efforts to poke holes in the Brian Hales polygamy narrative, there is a lot to talk about!Chapter Index:0:00 Intro1:10 Joseph's journal entry7:10 Jacob 2 & Malachi 210:20 Jeff - Brigham Young and D&C 12618:30 Inconsistencies in the D&C19:35 Joseph - Comment about Section 13221:20 Tim - D&C sections added later21:50 Dixie - Jesus chose Judas24:30 Mason - Wasn't God aware of Brigham's polygamy?24:50 Rayetta - Why did Mary Fielding Smith follow Brigham?32:05 Camry - David Alexander videos39:00 Lauren - Michelle's example of non-defensiveness41:45 Lauren - Jesus, SLC Temple, and Tartaria?46:30 Ross - Sealing keys and Joseph Smith51:40 Ross - Polygamy in ancient times58:55 Benjamin - Word of Wisdom and Brigham Young1:05:20 Mack - Is Brigham in heaven with his many wives?1:11:50 Kwaku - writing analysis of Section 1321:13:50 Kwaku - Freemasonry; 132 & the god of many wives & concubines1:19:40 Chrissy - Did Joseph pass the keys to the Twelve before he died?1:21:55 Emma - Engaging with other Christians1:23:10 Hank - Chief Midegah1:25:00 Andrew - Joseph Kingsbury's journal1:34:20 Leslie - Wendy Nelson; polygamy in the next life; trust in the Lord1:40:15 Alexander - Willard Richards, "the great event of 1844"1:42:00 Tiani - Matthew Bowman's opinion piece in the Salt Lake Tribune1:45:30 Tim - William Clayton journals1:46:50 God's blessings; Michelle's speaking experience

30 Juni 20241h 58min

Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 Patreon.com/132problems Ep. 87: Exposing the Expositor Pt. 3 (For more on the McMurrin family story) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac_bW82iivA&t=2700s Ep. 58: Sariah and the Matriarchs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bpird_sEvOw&t=125s 0:00 Intro 1:30 Did Denver Snuffer put Michelle up to this? 8:05 Context of Jacob chapter 2 22:30 Was Lehi a polygamist? 26:20 What is “celestial plural marriage”? 34:05 Is monogamy selfish? 36:00 Equality of men and women vs. a hierarchy 41:20 Which of Brigham’s doctrines does Benjamin disagrees with? 48:05 Brigham’s Adam-God doctrine 1:00:10 Is polygamy required for exaltation? 1:03:10 Polygamy devalues marriage 1:05:35 Keys and marriage 1:10:10 Blood atonement 1:19:42 The question of racism 1:26:00 The question of slavery 1:38:50 Young girls and polygamy 1:49:50 The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy 1:52:10 The Restoration without polygamy 2:01:00 Agreeing that The Book of Mormon is anti-polygamy 2:03:30 Outro

23 Juni 20242h 4min

Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 Patreon.com/132problems 0:00 Intro 5:40 Mormon Fundamentalists experience 9:35 Benjamin‘s background 29:45 Exploring other sects of Mormonism 40:15 Benjamin meeting general authorities 46:20 Thoughts on SLC Temple renovations 48:35 Changes to temple ordinances 57:15 Church break-off groups 1:00:30 Fundamentalist temples 1:11:00 Kirkland Temple 1:18:15 Joseph Smith’s polygamy 1:20:25 Is the history settled? 1:21:20 Is polygamy of God? 1:31:10 Polygamy scholars 1:32:50 Post-manifesto polygamy 1:35:15 Joseph F. Smith - defending polygamy, protecting the church 1:40:30 Lying for the Lord 1:42:05 Covenants 1:47:15 Martyrs for polygamy? 1:50:50 Women in Utah 1:52:15 Violence and polygamy 1:56:48 What does the evidence say?

16 Juni 20242h