161: Brigham's Transfiguration & Joseph's Polygamy: Two Dubious Narratives

Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 https://www.patreon.com/132Problems A HUGE thank you to Shane for agreeing to sit down with me for this discussion. We cover a variety of topics including Shane's evolving beliefs on polygamy and other topics, struggles with and continued participation in the church, how we view church "authority," ordinances, claims, etc., navigating marriage with differing beliefs, parenting a large family, thoughts and feelings about the podcast, and much more. Please feel free to continue to ask questions in the comments. Shane has assured me he will be happy to engage and answer them.

17 Marras 20231h 42min

Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 https://www.patreon.com/132Problems Multiple podcasts hit pretty hard last week against people who have come to believe that polygamy did not originate with Joseph Smith. As has always been the case, although they agree on almost nothing else, both those who hate Joseph Smith and think the worst of him, and those who claim to love him and believe they are following in his name, agree on this one central point -- that polygamy started with Joseph Smith. Both sides are convinced that theirs is the only tenable position. I disagree. In this intimidating episode I do my best to lay out the situation as I see it, explain the basics of my "polygamy denying" perspective, and respond directly to the key points of their presentations. Links: Saints Unscripted: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMj_lxPZIT0&t=1238s Mormonism Live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV3f57VZuqo&t=338s The Peace Maker: https://archive.org/details/GR_2186/mode/2up?view=theater Times and Seasons Notice: https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/NCMP1820-1846/id/8401 Oct. 5 Journal Entries: Original: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/journal-december-1842-june-1844-book-3-15-july-1843-29-february-1844/123 Altered for Publication: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/faenrandir/a_careful_examination/d6ee663e933a8cb01b79ddc33fe1232ac3ef12e5/documents/polygamy/oct5-1843/original-journal-entry-anonymous.jpg After Alterations: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-e-1-1-july-1843-30-april-1844/118 Hyrum's April 8, 1843 sermon (Thomas Bullock unedited transcript -- removed from JSP): https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/daa151c4-7bae-49d0-8cef-d281a70f1d32/0/32 Same speech after alterations (Still available on JSP, and has already been passed off as the original) https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1838-1856-volume-e-1-1-july-1843-30-april-1844/356 Joseph Smith's letter to the RS as recorded in the RS Minutes: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/nauvoo-relief-society-minute-book/108#full-transcript Same letter after alterations: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-to-emma-smith-and-the-relief-society-31-march-1842/3#full-transcript Joseph's letter to Parley Pratt about keeping families together: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-to-parley-p-pratt-and-others-12-june-1842/1#full-transcript Brigham Young, Sept 21, 1856, JoD vol. 4, pp. 51-57 Heber C. Kimball, Nov. 9, 1856, JoD vol. 4, pp. 80-83 Rob Fotheringham's Happiness Letter: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWD1XwVr6AA&t=1204s Melissa Lott Family Bible: https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets/7226d36f-b3a5-4c0e-9d0c-33d87d46ffb4/0/3 Michael Shirmer Ted Talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_6-iVz1R0o

17 Marras 20232h 39min

Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 https://www.patreon.com/132Problems Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball: lifelong friends, mission companions, collaborators. We all know they were taught polygamy by Joseph, and both declared it was the greatest trial of the lives, right? Jeremy Hoop digs deep into their original sources -- journals, letters, speeches and records -- to see how well these claims hold up. What did they know about polygamy, and when? Where did they learn it, and who taught it to them? If you believe Joseph Smith was the originator of polygamy, you might want to spend more time getting to know Brigham and Heber.

16 Marras 20232h 29min

Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 https://www.patreon.com/132Problems Sincere gratitude to Tonia Tewell for coming to talk to me and for the incredible work she is doing. This is absolutely on to watch and share! Links: Holding Out Help website: https://holdingouthelp.org/ Contact Info for State Reps. Please contact them to voice your concerns about these issues! https://house.utleg.gov/house-members/

21 Elo 20231h 40min

Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 https://www.patreon.com/132Problems We tend to think of polygamy as an uncomfortable relic of our past, but for far too many people, it is still a tragic system of painful oppression. Flora Jessop helps us go from understanding polygamy as simply a theoretical hardship, to feeling the actual suffering continuing for hundreds of our fellow brothers and sisters today. This one is worth listening to. Links: Flora's Book (I HIGHLY recommend, plus its FREE on audible!): https://www.audible.com/pd/Church-of-Lies-Audiobook/1705259448?qid=1685147577&sr=1-1&ref=a_search_c3_lProduct_1_1&pf_rd_p=83218cca-c308-412f-bfcf-90198b687a2f&pf_rd_r=SSQ87FXKNHQTW1S9Z4R2&pageLoadId=8l2YgK3yWnXIB6ke&creativeId=0d6f6720-f41c-457e-a42b-8c8dceb62f2c Amazon Link: https://www.amazon.com/Church-Lies-Flora-Jessop/dp/0470565462 Escaping the Prophet: https://www.youtube.com/show/SCwLDseNfW1Z5VozALpvi3Lg?season=1&sbp=CgEx

24 Kesä 20231h 42min

Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 https://www.patreon.com/132Problems Links: Levirate Marriage: https://ius.bg.ac.rs/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Tran%C5%BE%C3%ADk-Jan-Levirate-marriage-through-the-ages.pdf Yibbum: https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/558049/jewish/Levirate-Marriage-Yibbum-and-Chalitzah.htm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl31O8lsH5I&t=576s Orson Pratt talk on Polygamy: https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/JournalOfDiscourses3/id/2411 Ogden Kraut Polygamy in the Bible, pages 83-90: https://ogdenkraut.com/?page_id=479 Don Bradley: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqVT-V-xX9k&t=760s Circumcision Info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Sayre https://www.gutenberg.org/files/19924/19924-h/19924-h.htm https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3225415/#:~:text=The%20rise%20of%20circumcision%20in,surgeon%2C%20in%20the%20late%201800s.

16 Kesä 20231h 56min

Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 https://www.patreon.com/132Problems Links: Whitney's books: Hyrum Smith A Prophet Unsung: https://www.amazon.com/Hyrum-Prophet-Unsung-Whitney-Horning/dp/B0BN5Z9QDQ/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2XXVSCS1629Z6&keywords=whitney+horning&qid=1684043745&s=books&sprefix=whitney+horning%2Cstripbooks%2C202&sr=1-1 Joseph Smith Revealed: https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Revealed-Exploring-Alternate/dp/B09QNV8R6K/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2XXVSCS1629Z6&keywords=whitney+horning&qid=1684043745&s=books&sprefix=whitney+horning%2Cstripbooks%2C202&sr=1-2 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/church-patriarch-elder-eldred-g-smith-dies-at-age-106?lang=eng#:~:text=respect%20this%20man.%E2%80%9D-,Elder%20Smith%20is%20the%20last%20person%20to%20have%20held%20the,of%20the%20Prophet's%20brother%20Hyrum. Eldredge Smith: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/church/news/church-patriarch-elder-eldred-g-smith-dies-at-age-106?lang=eng#:~:text=respect%20this%20man.%E2%80%9D-,Elder%20Smith%20is%20the%20last%20person%20to%20have%20held%20the,of%20the%20Prophet's%20brother%20Hyrum. Heber C. Kimball Funeral Address for Mary Fielding Smith: https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/JournalOfDiscourses3/id/1665 Brigham Young Funeral Address for Mary Fielding Smith: https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/content/museum/lost-sermons-brigham-young-mary-fielding-smith-funeral?lang=eng

15 Touko 20232h 21min

Please consider supporting this podcast: Venmo: @Michelle-Stone-24 https://www.patreon.com/132Problems Links: RaceAndThePriesthood.com https://raceandthepriesthood.com/in-the-news/ Marvinperkins.com

15 Touko 20232h 2min